HOTAS rigs - which and why?

[Stuart Brown]

Hi,

I originally bought an FLCS/TQS/RCS rig about 8 years ago from RC Simulations when I first got a PC, but because racing sims was always my big thing I've always spent 99% of my time racing and 1% shared between everything else in comparison... as a result I've really hardly used it, especially the last few years. Just recently though some racing mates have got me interested again so I dug out my hardware, but looking around on the net I see its just well out of date and could probably do with replacing even though there is nothing actually wrong with it as such. I couldnt even find anywhere I could download some programs for it so I could just jump into IL2FB, FS2004, LoMac that I bought yesterday and have a go without having to program it all up myself. That told me something right there!

I dont mind spending a few quid on this just like I did originally with my current rig and as I always have with racing rigs too, but what I would like to get clear on before I do is what the pros and cons are of the available options.

It seems to me from reading around that I have a few HOTAS options:

1 - upgrade chips for this rig
2 - Saitek X45
3 - CH Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, Pro Pedals
4 - Cougar, with CH Pro Pedals

The upgrade chips would be cheap, but I dont feel confident that I'd end up with what I really want at the end of the day. The Saitek seems to be very programmable, but at 70 notes I have to wonder where the costs have been cut - cheap gear is cheap for a reason.

Realistically I think I'm most likely to go with either the CH or Cougar rig, but I'm trying to dig deeper than the marketing guff and get to what the REAL pros and cons are by getting the lowdown from gamers who actually use them.

Thanks for any help/advice :)

Cheers, Stu

Stuart Brown
The Pits - Racing Realism for the PC

http://www.theuspits.com

[Spidey]

Cougar and CH are going to be equal in terms of programmability.

However, they are going to have very differnt feels. If you are a long time TM user, it will take you a bit to get used to the lighter feel (of both Saitek and CH).

In terms of programming, CH and TM are top notch. But based on what you are describing, i don't really see you needing all of that. A Saitek is probably more than enough for what you are looking.

With regards to cost, in the long run the Cougar will end up costing more than CH. CH is going to work the way its supposed to right out of the box and the reliability is top notch. With the Cougar, you are more than likely gonna have to spend more to get it working the way it should.

[MichaelCHProd]

Support.

One word, yet it says so much. What is the telephone number for Tech Support on the Cougar? What is the official Tech Support E-mail address for the Cougar?


We are not that hard to find....
CH Products Retail Tech Support
760-598-7833 Mon-Fri 8-4
http://www.chproducts.com/retail/form.html
It's on our web site and every product we sell.
[/b]


The Cougar looks great and some people would never use any other joystick. But look around... how many CH owners are ex-Cougar owners, they are easy to find. Then try to find some one who switched from a CH USB rig to the Cougar.

But hey you may be a Cougar guy. Joysticks are like anything else in life, what you might love someone else probably loathes. B)

[MichaelCHProd]

I have started the clock..... any one want to take bets on how long it takes a Cougar cult member to jump in and say nasty things about me and cast dispersions on my family tree? B)

[Twilight]

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! err...sorry, wrong forum... :D :D



Twilight

[Revvin]

I owned a Cougar for around 18 months or more (well four actually :thumbsdown: ) I also owned the fore-runner to the Saitek X45 - the X36 but my choice if I had to do it all again would be the Atari VCS controller..man what a stick!

http://www.classicgaming.com/gamingmuseum/2600_joystick.jpg

OK just kidding, if I had my choice again it would be the full CH USB rig I have now. Why? I don't think CH's build quality can be matched by anything on the market the stick and throttle feel very solidly built and all the buttons and hat switches have a positive feel to them. The ministick on the throttle has a nice long arm and a nice gimbal that allows for precise control. CH's build quality can be seen by the number of users still using gameport CH controllers they bought many years ago, infact I have my old Force FX and gameport PRo Throttle in my wardrobe that was only replaced because I wanted a USB setup.

Bob Church has done wonders with the Control Manager software it's easy to use for new players to create profiles quickly but the potential offered by the CMS scripting means the CH Hotas is one of the most programmable sticks available if not the most programmable. The great thing with the software is that it just improves with every release, we're not just talking bug fixes here, many features are added with each new release and there is no sign of Bob or CH relenting on the continuous development yet!

CH's support in my opinion is also second to none. When I bought my CH rig I contacted Debby at CH with some questions and pointed her towards a few online discussions, she had already read them and discussed a few I had not come across myself regarding our conversation, it was refreshing to deal with a company that was so in touch with the community. CH have also been very supportive of this site helping users with problems and posting profiles, ideas for scripts and debugging users scripts. You'll see Michael and Bob Church here helping out. Over the years I've read many horror stories about getting peripherals replaced or fixed but Michael's reply in this (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=136) thread indicates the way CH like to deal with customers:


Rather than trouble shoot a number of components we like to get the sim gear back out to the Sim Player.Â*

So they replace the sub-assembly that contains the problem. Then later on when you are back lighting people upÂ* we take the sub-assembly apart and try to find exactly where the failure occured.

It does you no good if it is sitting here at the factory
[/b]

If only all manufacturers took that approach!

It's hard to pick out any one feature that sets the CH controllers apart from anything else because it's the complete package that makes buying CH controllers such an easy choice to make. If you want a stick that works stright out of the box, is extremely programmable and enjoyable to use them buy CH.

[Ghastly]

While many like the Saitek X45, a lot of folks also hate it. It's two main flaws (now that they rewrote the ungodly SGE) is that it tends to loosen at center very rapidly and the tensioning mechanism is "awkward" at best - it takes the most strength to start the stick moving at center and then it gets easier to move as you push it further out due the pressurized disk tensioning mechanism.

This is presuming you don't fly of course where the "rocker" rudder axis is problematic - hard to position and control with any precision at all and with as much as a 10% difference in where it centers when coming from the left versus the right.

I own both an X45 and the older X36 in almost new condition - almost new because after trying to adjust to them for several months, I gave up and switched to something else. Stick wise that is - I did keep the Saitek hooked up so I can use the rotaries (in TR primarily).

<S>

Ghastly
(-Ghost)

[MichaelCHProd]

rotaries..... humm :idea:

[531_Ghost]

Could not have put it better myself Revvin. Although I did learn from others mistakes and went with a CH HOTAS first time out (after a TM Afterburner).

S/F
Ghost

[Twilight]

I haven't had any other HOTAS than my recently acquired CH's. I did have many other joysticks before, and man, was I dissappointed!! I still have a joystick graveyard somewhere in my house!! I remember having to solder cables that came loose, etc. plus spiking pots, broken buttons, etc...

Then I found CH products, and bought a Flightstick Pro. I had a couple sessions of broken springs, but CH's customer service took care of that immediately. They even sent me a couple of extra springs just in case they broke again.

Last year, after 10 years of having bought it, I wanted to put it back into service, but one of the buttons was practically dead and one of the pots was spiking (and it is a gameport joystick). Instead of trying to repair it, and because of my previous experience with CH (almost 10 years hassle free!!!), I bought myself a CH HOTAS. Still have to buy a set of pedals, but so far I am very pleased with my purchase...

(I admit that before actually buying my CH HOTAS, I was considering the Cougar and the Saitek X-3x Series, but Cougar was on backorder and I read it had a lot of problems and lousy customer support, and I didn't like one bit the Saitek joystick. I did like Saitek's throttle, though...)

I know I'm quite biased towards CH, but that just because I have had an excellent experience with their products...



Twilight

[Thunderbolt56]

Originally posted by MichaelCHProd@Feb 23 2004, 09:42 PM
rotaries..... humm :idea:
Rotaries (or lack thereof) on the Pro Throttle is the only thing keeping some of my squad mates from making a complete transition from the X45 to the CH pro Throttle.

I'm a southpaw and actually have my Pro Throttle upside down with the axis reversed for use in my right hand. A little practice and it works fine for me this way. Rotaries would be a very nice addition for trim and prop-pitch control though.

I currently use the Pro Throttle and Pro pedals with a MSFFB2 JS (Yes, I have Fighterstick, But the thumb hat digs into my left palm and I really dig the FFB)

If the Flightstick Pro USB had FFB I would go ahead and get one just to keep my whole rig CH, accommodate my left-handedness and better utilze the Control Manager even though it wouldn't offer any more buttons.

[JackFrost]

I went from a TM FLCS/TQS to a CH USB Hotas setup. I decided to go with CH due to the amount of money it seemed to take in order to get a Cougar up to a reliable condition. I have never regretted the decision. It took me a very short time to adjust to the difference in feel and the new programmability in CH makes my head hurt with the possibilities. I think that TM had an edge with the aftermarket programming software that is easier to use and more intuitive than the CH program (IMHO), but I would recommend a CH setup over TM at this point to anyone.

[Phantom II]

I just recently switched from a CH Gameport HOTAS (CS,PT & Pedals) to CH USB HOTAS (FS,PT & PP). I have been a LOYAL CH product user for 8 years now. FANTASTIC customer support (take this forum for example) and warranty service. Where else do you have specialists available on a forum where it usually takes minutes (vice days anywhere else) to get the answers you are looking for.

The Cougar HOTAS may look as cool and the CH HOTAS, but it can never match the awesome support given by the dedicated and professional guys at CH via this forum.

Thank you CH Hangar!

[sanford]

Howdy Y'all,


I bought a new Thrustmaster Cougar Hotas about 4 or 5 months ago and have no real complaints except that it sits up a little higher than I like. The problem I have is that my old Elite rudders are about shot. I believe they're around 7 or 8 years old so I got my moneys worth out of them. If they were'nt on their last legs I would continue to use them. But as things are they won't last much longer and I've worked on them several times as it is.

The question I have is this, which set of CH rudder pedals will work with them? The CH Pro Pedal Gameport or the CH Pro USB. I'd sure appreciate any information from someone who knows so I don't waste money on something that won't work with my setup. Thanks in advance for any and all responses.

And for all you pilots out there stop in at raf662.com sometime and fly with us. You'll find me there as RAF_Samson in Bravo Squad. Y'all stop on by and fly with us sometime.

[Revvin]

I believe the gameport pedals will plug into the base of the Cougar. When I used one I had a set of CH USB Pro Pedals as most of the games I played such as IL-2, Aces High, WWII Online etc supported more than one controller input.

[Ian Boys]

I am moving to CH kit and selling my Gameport pedals that plug into the Cougar. If you interested, email me at:

i.boys _AT_ btinternet.com

[ruggbutt]

Originally posted by MichaelCHProd@Feb 23 2004, 02:42 PM
rotaries..... humm :idea:
<div align="right">1042
[/quote]

I switched from an X45. In LOMAC and PF it was quicker and more precise to be able to map elevator and aileron trim to rotaries. While I'll never go back to the X45 you'd be my hero if rotaries started appearing on the Pro Throttle.

[Ian Boys]

Yes, the no rotaries on the throttle thing is strange, it has become so natural to dial in trim on the cougar.

That's why I'm thinking of getting the quadrant instead of the throttle - axes for power, mix, pitch, flaps, elev. trim and one spare I haven't thought of yet :) Gear lever?

[531_Ghost]

Works for me Ian ;)

Originally posted by Ian Boys@Dec 28 2004, 05:04 PM
Yes, the no rotaries on the throttle thing is strange, it has become so natural to dial in trim on the cougar.

That's why I'm thinking of getting the quadrant instead of the throttle - axes for power, mix, pitch, flaps, elev. trim and one spare I haven't thought of yet :) Gear lever?
<div align="right">9402
[/quote]

[JNOV]

Here's my $0.02, robbed from a long post comparing the Cougar to a CH rig on another forum that I'm too lazy to recreate (as you'll gather from the body of my post, unmodded Cougars suffer from significant mechanical shortcomings):

==================================================

CH's "Foxy" (note: Foxy is the Cougar programming software) is called Control Manager. It allows integrating multiple CH USB controllers into one or more virtual devices (I have four devices in some of my profiles). It also provides a user-friendly GUI for "simple" programming and an extremely powerful scripting language for more complex tasks (I use the scripting language almost exclusively; if you've ever programmed in any high-level lanauge, it is simple to pick up.) As such, you would be able to program your throttle and stick in Control Manager, combining them into a single device if you desire. Your gameport pedals should present no problem, unless you're trying to use all three controllers in a game that does not recognize multiple DirectInput devices (e.g., MechWarrior). I think that that used to be an issue in Falcon but that it has now been resolved (i.e., I think that you can now use multiple DirectInput controllers). You should verify that, though, lest you get a nasty surprise.

As to the throw and feel of the CH gear in relation to TM stuff, and particularly the Cougar, there are very different. As I noted, I've owned two different Cougars. I tried some simple mods to get rid of the play in both, but I did not try any of the custom-machined mods. At the time, they were just being introduced (I was an "early adopter") and it wasn't really clear to me that they were available to the general public in anything like mass quantities. If I still owned them, I would probably go in for one of the custom gimbal mods and probably for the Hall sensor mod, as well.

I mostly fly WWII sims like Aces High and IL-2, which, in my experience, involve much more vigorous control manipulation than jet sims. I do, however, fly jet sims like F4 and LOMAC, helicopter sims like EECH, space "sims" like X2, Freespace, and Tachyon, and other games that just work better with a HOTAS, like MechWarrior.

That "story" is just to put the following comparative remarks in context:

1. Overall construction/quality. Some CH users disagree, but my view is that you just can't beat the Cougar's all-metal construction. I will note, however, that I had hat switches fail quickly on both of my Cougars and the dogfight switch never really worked correctly on either. I have had one hat switch go bad on one of my CH controllers after a couple of years of use. Both TM and CH promptly installed new hats in the sticks. (I will note that it costs much less to send a CH stick back for repairs than a Cougar!)

CH doesn't do metal. Period. But the material they use is thick, sturdy, and feels very substantial. If you can't have metal, it's probably the next best thing. Obviously, the controllers aren't anywhere near as heavy as the Cougars. For example, I'd guess that my Fighterstick and Pro Throttle weigh between one and two pounds each. Even through they're lighter, the CH units have very large bases and have no tendency to lift up or slide around during heavy maneuvering.

2. Control layout. CH's Fighterstick has the same switch layout as the Cougar controller, except that the Fighterstick has an additional analog axis (intended, I guess, to be used as a throttle for people without a separate one) that can be arbitrarily programmed in Control Manager. The throttles is where the major difference is found. CH's Pro Throttle has three four-way hat switches and one 8-way switch, just like the Fighterstick. It also has three discrete buttons and a x-y ministick with a push switch, much like the Cougar throttle's. It does not have the Cougar's two rotaries. Control Manager allows creation of virtual axes that can be controlled by one or more of your controllers' physical axes or buttons and, because of that flexibility, I've never felt penalized by the missing rotaries. I'll admit that at first I wanted them for controlling trim in IL-2, but I've developed an alternative scheme using the primary axes (using the aforementioned programming flrexibility) that I actually prefer.

So, I guess where I come out is that the rotaries are definitely nice, but if I had to choose between the four hat switches and the rotaries, I'd choose the hat switches.

Note that another difference between the two throttles is that the CH throttle is a "slide" throttle, unlike the Cougar's, which pivots. Another point is that Cougar's throttle is a replica of a real F-16 throttle, where CH's is not. This doesn't bother me much, but when playing F4, it'd be nice to use an authentic profile like Jag's without having the simulate the rotaries. This factor is obviously highly subjective, so I'll leave it to you. One other thing to consider is that CH is about to release a new Throttle Quadrant, which has fully programmable analog axes with detents (the ProThrottle slide mechanism has no detent), along with six two-way switches.

3. Resistance/play/precision. The Fighterstick's throw weight is MUCH lighter than the Cougar's. They are just completely different; there is no way to really compare them. It is simple to "mod" the Fighterstick with a couple of 25-cent rubber washers so that its stiffness increases dramatically, into Cougar's neighborhood. My personal preference is for the lighter throw; I find it much more precise, particularly around the middle where it really matters.

My Cougars both had considerable center play, which was exacerbated by two things: the stiff resistance upon exiting the play area and the center "detent" resulting from the stock gimbals. Indeed, I found it impossible to move my Cougar diagonally through the middle with any degree of precision. I take it that the gimbal mods have rectified those issues, but as I noted above, I have no experience with those. If I could get a Cougar whose gimbal mechanism had been modified to eliminate the play and notchy center "detent," it would be much better than the one I have now. In fact, I've toyed with the idea of picking up a stock Cougar (retail, if available, or on eBay) and having it modded. Even still, though, I think I'd prefer the lighter throw of my Fightersticks, but I might I use the Cougar for some games (e.g., F4), but I'd probably use springs that would reduce the stock throw weight considerably.

My Fightersticks do have a little center play (much less than either of my Cougars), but I find it is not an issue due to the lack of any sort of center detent or throw-resistance wall. Also, the CH gimbal mechanisms are very simple and are constructed of the same tough stuff as the bodies of the controllers. I've not noticed the play to worsen over time, even after years of use.

The Cougar stick has 1024 points of resolution; the Fighterstick has only 256. I'm pretty sure that the stock pots and imprecision of my Cougars reduced the effective resolution considerably, but perhaps with gimbal mods and Hall sensors, you really can access the full range of precision. That would be very nice, indeed.

4. Programmability. Foxy is well-done and quite flexible. Control Manager (developed by Bob Church) is more flexible, and its scripting language is much more like a high-level programming language than Foxy. I've used both extensively, and for me, it's no contest. This is sort of like the throw resistance issue: the two systems are completely different, albeit with similar capabilities, and I prefer CH's solution.

5. Customer suport. You absolutely, positively cannot beat CH's customer support. For an example of what it's like, just go peruse the forums I linked above. CH employees post hourly during the day, addressing customer's concerns about hardware, software, configuration, and programming problems. Finally, CH constantly updates their Control Manager software and continue to release new products. I think they'll be around and supporting the HOTAS market for some time.

Well, I'm about out of steam. I hope that some of this was helpful. If you have any other questions, fire away, and I'll do my best to address them.

Regards,

LSB/JNOV

================================================== ==

Note that since the time I wrote that, CH's Control Manager has been considerably improved and CH has released its Throttle Quadrant. One more thing to note is that the Cougar mods I mentioned above, if even available, would move the cost of your HOTAS rig into a different class altogether.

Best regards,

JNOV

[Revvin]

I think rotaries would be worth some consideration from CH as it's something that keeps cropping up, my own personal taste though is to use a hat switch and this is something I preferred to do on both the Saitek X36 and HOTAS Cougar I owned, but again that was my own preference I know others that prefer to have it on an axis.

[sanford]

Thanks for the info Revvin. That's more or less what I thought but it's nice to have someone else's input on it. The gameport pedals are probably what I'll get. I always liked the thought of having toe brakes as in real aircraft.

[Holycannoli]

The Cougar looks great and some people would never use any other joystick. But look around... how many CH owners are ex-Cougar owners, they are easy to find. Then try to find some one who switched from a CH USB rig to the Cougar.[/b]

This is the biggest reason why I scrapped my newer plan of getting a Cougar HOTAS and going back to my old original plan of getting a CH HOTAS. I'll be ordering it tomorrow or Thursday.

Before I even got IL2 or Lomac I researched the joysticks out there and saw that CH seemed the best. That was what I wanted. Didn't have the money though at the time :( so I got a Thrustmaster Afterburner force feedback to hold me over.

BUT...then not long ago I saw the Cougar! And the marketing for it is brilliant. Says things like 'used by USAF' and stuff like that. Wow. THAT was the HOTAS I was gonna buy! It's all metal it's gotta be better than CH right? I mean, LOOK at it!

So I researched. And researched. And researched some more. And I scrapped my Cougar idea. Sorry, but all metal construction is really just bells and whistles in a HOTAS with all those problems. I want reliability and superior customer support. So what if CH isn't all metal? So what if it's missing a rotary or two? CH is the quality stuff.

My Afterburner just broke the other day (yay me! I may be grounded for a bit but it's an excuse to splurge and get my CH setup!). Sucker isn't old or abused but it broke. Feels like a child's toy on the outside and I guess it's built like one on the inside. That's another strike against Thrustmaster for me.

So anyway, yeah I've read about a lot of ex-Cougar users who are now CH, and so far no ex-CH who are now Cougar (well not for any negative reasons anyway. At the most they use both). That's big. That's a statement to quality of both of the top HOTAS out there.

And hi :) First time post for me here. Hopefully by this time next week I'll be flying somewhere over the Pacific in PF with my brand new toys!

[MichaelCHProd]

Thanks for going CH :) HoliCannoli

JNOV - nice write up :)

[ruggbutt]

Holy has touched on many of the reasons why I didn't go w/a Cougar. I was initially dismayed at the lack of rotaries (I was spoiled by my X45) but I went CH anyway. In fact, my only complaint w/the HOTAS is that it's slightly less precise to adjust trim w/the hat switches. That's not much of a complaint compared to how thrilled I am that I don't have to touch my k/b at all for LOMAC or PF. Sometimes you can hear me giggling in the other room.:)

[MichaelCHProd]

I am glad you dig your new rig.... sometimes I think I hear that giggling :)

[531_Ghost]

Did someone say, rotaries? :D

[Corsair8X]

The Cougar looks great and some people would never use any other joystick. But look around... how many CH owners are ex-Cougar owners, they are easy to find.[/b]

:bye: (This was as close an icon I could find to enthusiasticly raising my hand to be counted).

I have NEVER looked back after switching from TM to CH, NEVER. That doesn't mean I don't look at my Cougar stuff from time to time, after all, they're pretty. But use them again? Never. I and doing something with my CH stuff that I didn't do that much with my TM stuff, fly. Really fly. Not tinker with them, not scream as I got "spiked" into the ground, not avoid sims in general out of sheer frustration. Just fly. It's nice to have fun again. They just work. It's as simple as that.

And it comes with this great community - a community who's sole ambition is to help each other. Why are they so helpful, and why are so many helpful? I don't think it's because they are any better people than the other group. I think it's because they are possibly less frustrated with their stuff and without spending so much time tinkering and fine-tuning they have more time to devote to both flying and finding new ways to program their rigs. I think they just have extra time, extra energy, and extra motivation to help.

I've spent almost $1000CDN on my stuff and I have NO regrets. It's all been good and it's only added to my experience. I'm so enthusiastic because this stuff got me BACK into sims, got me excited to fly again. I left CH to TM and spent years in that camp. Most of that time was chasing a setup that I thought HAD to be good because it was so much money. It wasn't. I went back and rediscovered what it was that I loved about sims - flying.

[MrMudd]

I love my Cougar!, Its the best damn Dust Detecter ive had for the past 4-5 years...

Whoops..did I say that out Loud?

It was defective from day one.....

Spent 3 visits to the repair place. a total of 9 months..... :thumbsdown:


Their tech support. Well is not a tech site. It is a flight sim Forum.... Administered by no Official Tm representitives. :rofl:


I would of thought that they would have atleast put more reliability/quality in the product.


I've been in this hobby since 1993, Having Flown 16's for 1/3rd of my career. i'm not impressed. it surely Exceeds the old RCS Hotas Gear....... But i'm dissapointed. Fanboy status don' work for me.

Kudos to Tm for launching the HOTAS market with its concept Hotas Systems. I loved flying Combat Helo DI Apache, Gunship ETC with them. But alas they lasted a season. and the product died off...

I'm thankful that I have been flying on the same set of CHProducts USB gear for the past 3 1/2 Years. They have survived two Moves, Countless Development and consulting Work related to flight sim titles. They have traveled with me as a dependable recreation companion on REal World operational Deployments. The usb Functionality allows me to use them WITH our USAF propriatary AIRBOOK and Falcon view notebook based systems.

Ive boosted productivity in USAF FAC LABS and Flight Test Labs, and Training squadron usage with the CH PRO USB Gear.

Thank you Ch for Designing, manufacturing, Supplying, and above all Thanks to Michael and Debby at CH for makeing sure us people investing into the flight sim genre and Real World military spectrum. have hardware so we can do what we do best " Winning"

Warfighting is a perishable skill. If you look at the experiance level of the real World pilots and the Sim Pilots, you will find those that are succesfull have had dependable and reliable hardware available to them. Several of the best Sim pilots ive flown online with since Janes F15E. Proved to me over many years that their skills were honed behind ch products. They upgraded to the usb only for the added programming and hardware upgrade.


Choice is your really. Buy a pretty Flower planter, or buy a tool that will make you better than the next guy.

:cheers:

[-redw-]

hi all,

here my first post in this forum - i think it is the right place to do this ;)

i switched from x45 to CH FSPTPP

why ?
after 2,5 years of fling in warbirds some switches dont work save and the plastic ring under the spring was broken - the x45 was my first HOTAS and i appreciate all the buttons, but i dont like the rudder solution in the throttle and for me the precision of the stick was bad - my be it was my fault, but i was not really happy

so i ask some people what they would recommend - i heard more voices called CH than COUGAR - so i trust them and since 1/16/2006 i am a happy owner of CH HOTAS :D - it was easy to install and setup all parts - many thanks to Rapier (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showuser=849), he did a very good support job for me

my first statments after some hours in air - i would say that ist a totaly new and plesant feeling, i can fly more precisely and i am suprised what rudder can do if the work (the rudder in x45 is a joke)

well i am on the beginning and on the way to find the limits of CH ;)
all what i read in this forum let me hope that many good and helpfule people are in
so see you later and check your 6 :bye:

i did my best, but i know my english is not the best - please excuse me if i mistake something now and in future :cheers:

[MichaelCHProd]

Nice to see you here Muddy ;)

-Redw- Thanks for picking CH and don't worry about your English, mine is not much better :)