HOTAS for a lefty

[Condor]

My son gave me the IL-2 gold pack for Christmas and I'm back into flight sims in a big way. I now have Pacific Fighters and the merged install with all the latest patches. I quickly learned that I needed a better joystick. Since I'm a lefty I got a Saitek Evo Force. I'm now at the point where I want more functions than the stick will provide. (I also need a stick with less slop than the Evo Force. I understand sloppiness around the center is a characteristic of force feedback sticks.) I have controls mapped to the mouse buttons and scroll wheel as well but I still don't have enough controls to use complex engine management without having to resort to the key board. I've been looking around this forum and there seem to be a lot of very clever people. Has anyone come up with a HOTAS solution for lefties other than use the right hand on the stick. (I've beeen practicing that and can see it will take a lot of practice.) I would already have a fighterstick and pro throttle If they came in a versions for both hands. I have pro pedals and they are great. I'm sure there must be some lefties in this group. What do you use?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.[/size]

[Revvin]

Hi Condor, I've seen a few modifications of Combatsticks to make them 'lefy compatible' but that involves cutting off the side protrusion for the button on the left side of the stick and re-attaching it to the right. How about using a Flightstick, Throttle Quadrant and Pro Pedals? I know the Flightstick may not give you as many buttons as the Fighterstick or Combatstick but you could use a little CMS script to create up to four modes per button with a shifted function per mode also.

I actually prefer using my Throttle quadrant for IL-2. although IL-2 does'nt support that many controls via an axis but I have throttle, prop pitch mapped as an analogue axis and then have controls like landing gear and flaps mapped to other levers which gives me a visual reference on my desktop as to whether my landing gear, flaps or landing hook are down/up which can be handy for those all important carrier landings ;) The Pro Pedals would give you far more precise control over your aircraft for small adjustments during a straffing run or just to taxi out onto the runway. Add onto that the ability to map toe brakes and you'll find it much easier to navigate those taxiways.

I don't have the Flightstick here but I do have the Throttle Quadrant and Pro Pedals so if you did decide to go ahead and buy those I'd be happy to knock up a profile for you as long as you did'nt mind being a guinea pig and testing it for me :)

[Condor]

Revvin.

Thanks for the suggestion and offer to help. I have considered the flight stick and throttle quadrant combo. I'm a little leary, however, of multiple modes for single buttons. I've had a couple of online conversations with Saitek X52 users who have tried to get the most out of their Saiteks by using more than one mode. They both say they have problems with being in the wrong mode at a critical moments. It's a level of complexity I'm not sure I'm up to. The combination of the pro-throttle and fighterstick appears to have enough buttons that using multiple modes would not be required. I have wondered how feasible it is to relocate the side button on the fighterstick. I have been hoping to pick up a used one cheap on ebay for experimntation but when they show up they sell for too close to retail.

The fighterstick modification, however, is probably easy compared to adapting the pro throttle for right hand use. Does the fighterstick/throttle quadrant combo give you enough controls in IL-2 that you don't need multiple modes. If the fighterstick button can be relocated (or even removed) a left hand adapted fighterstick and throttle quadrant might be the solution that keeps my left hand on the stick.

Has anyone out there moved the side buton on the fighterstick to adapt it for left hand use? If so, I would like to hear how it was done and how well it worked out.

In the meantime, I will continue to practice with my right hand on the stick. :bye:

Thanks

[531_Ghost]

This set up for a lefty (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1040&hl=) is pretty unique...

[Condor]

This set up for a lefty (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1040&hl=) is pretty unique...
[/b]


Very impressive! More ambitious than what I want to try or need. What would be required to just move the 4-way switch from the left side to the right side of the stick? It seems it would be just a matter of 1) disconnecting the switch from the wiring,
2) sawing off the projection the switch is mounted on,
3) boring a hole in the right side of the stick for the wiring
4) reconnecting the wiring to the switch,
5) gluing the piece the swtich mounts on to the right side of the stick,
6) covering up the hole on the left side (I like the foam used in the example)

Would it be as straightforward as I describe? I have no idea how the wiring is routed and connected. Are there internal components that would need to be relocated? Will the length and layout of the wiring to the 4-way accommodate the relocation? How are the wires connected to the switch and how many are there? Would it be beter to dosconnect the wires from the switch and remake the connections or jusy cut and splice them?

[531_Ghost]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(531_Ghost @ Apr 15 2006, 02:42 PM) 20440

This set up for a lefty (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1040&hl=) is pretty unique...
[/b]


Very impressive! More ambitious than what I want to try or need. What would be required to just move the 4-way switch from the left side to the right side of the stick? It seems it would be just a matter of 1) disconnecting the switch from the wiring,
2) sawing off the projection the switch is mounted on,
3) boring a hole in the right side of the stick for the wiring
4) reconnecting the wiring to the switch,
5) gluing the piece the swtich mounts on to the right side of the stick,
6) covering up the hole on the left side (I like the foam used in the example)

Would it be as straightforward as I describe? I have no idea how the wiring is routed and connected. Are there internal components that would need to be relocated? Will the length and layout of the wiring to the 4-way accommodate the relocation? How are the wires connected to the switch and how many are there? Would it be beter to dosconnect the wires from the switch and remake the connections or jusy cut and splice them?
[/b][/quote]

I don&#39;t think it would be even that difficult. Altho not a "lefty" :evil: :ph34r: Altho to make it a true "lefty" button #3 would have to be placed on the other side of the stick.

[Papa_K]

...Has anyone come up with a HOTAS solution for lefties other than use the right hand on the stick. (I&#39;ve beeen practicing that and can see it will take a lot of practice.) I would already have a fighterstick and pro throttle If they came in a versions for both hands. I have pro pedals and they are great. I&#39;m sure there must be some lefties in this group. What do you use?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.[/size]
[/b]

It&#39;s not what you want to hear, but I&#39;d say learn to fly with the stick in your right hand. Yes, I&#39;m left handed. If you&#39;re like most left handers, you&#39;re already more ambidextrous than your average right hander.

Real world aircraft are presented as-is. In fighters it&#39;s stick in the middle, or on the right (e.g., F-16), and throttle on the left. (Left/right handed is less an issue with a yoke, so maybe you could try that - I&#39;ve always liked a stick better.)

There have always been a good number of left handed pilots in the various fighter squadrons I&#39;ve been in. In one case we had almost 40% left handed. (I&#39;m ex-AF - started in F-4s, which is an age indicator these days.)

If you haven&#39;t been pulling on the pole with your right hand... I&#39;d say it&#39;s time to practice. :D

(ADDED: Do you always use a computer mouse with your left hand? ... if it&#39;s just more convenient to use your left hand, there&#39;s obviously no reason to force yourself to use the wrong hand there, or in a game...)

Papa_K

[snomhf]

I&#39;m a little leary, however, of multiple modes for single buttons.[/b]

Condor,
I have never liked modes. It wasn&#39;t until I began to study what Ziggy has done that I expanded his work to "four functions per button without modes". See:

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3123

I works really well and is very natural.

As for a lefty-hotas, you could do something like what I did:

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?a...pe=post&id=1243 (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=1243)

[Condor]

Snomhf,

Ureaka! A pro throttle for the right hand. :thumbsup:

The mod you made to the fighterstick is close to what I had in mind except that I envisioned placement of the side 4-way switch more like it is on the standard stick - just on the right side. (Do you work it with your thumb or reach around with your forefinger?) I don&#39;t have either the stick or the throttle so I don&#39;t have a feel for how they fit in the hand.

It was how to adapt the throttle for the right hand that had me stumped. :rant: If you did what it appears you did to the throttle I&#39;m embarassed I didn&#39;t think of it. :blush: It looks like you cut it off from the upright, flipped it end to end and upside down, and reattached it. Do I have it right? I&#39;ve blown up your photo and done everything I can to increase the detail. I dont see any scar on the top of the throttle where you would have had to patch the hole.

You must have cut off the left side of the stick to move the switch but don&#39;t see any sign of a patch job. The projection where the 4-way is mounted on the right doesn&#39;t look stuck on either. It looks like it came from the factory. What&#39;s your secret?

I was ready to give up and relearn to fly with my right hand on the stick but now that I see what you&#39;ve done I have to have one like it. I&#39;m drooling all over the keyboard. I hope you&#39;re willing to share the details of how you did it so I can learn from your experience. The cutting and pasting of the plastic shells I think I could manage OK on my own. It just wouldn&#39;t be as pretty as yours. What needs to be done with the wiring is my biggest concern. I&#39;m not much of an electronics tech.

Thanks for sharing. Very nice piece of work. :thumbsup:

[snomhf]

Condor,
Actually (a bit embarrassing here), I manufactured my handles from scratch out of fibreglas. I even moved the "pinky" button on the FS to toward the back so I press it with my index finger. The thumb hat I moved down some so I had a more natural rest for my thumb. That just seemed more comfortable for me. I figured since I was making my own handles, I might as well customize them to suit my taste.

I made these handles over ten years ago when all there was was gameport stuff. When USB came out, I took the handles off and put them on my brand new USB stuff. That was a bit scary to take them right out of the box and commence taking them apart (bye bye warranty, ah what the heck, I&#39;ve never been much of a warranty kind of guy anyway).

I&#39;m working now trying to figure out a reasonable way to mass produce these left-handed handles. If I figure out something, I&#39;ll be sure to post something here.

Edit: Just read your post again. That&#39;s a really cool idea about flipping the throttle over. I never thought about that. That could work. I have two sets of of left over handles (my original gameport and the original USB). I may sacrifice one of them to an experiment with your idea.
Good luck

[Condor]

Edit: Just read your post again. That&#39;s a really cool idea about flipping the throttle over. I never thought about that. That could work. I have two sets of of left over handles (my original gameport and the original USB). I may sacrifice one of them to an experiment with your idea.
Good luck
[/b]

I won&#39;t claim it. You planted the seed. I thought it was your idea. Never even considered molding my own parts. Was it difficult to relocate the buttons and wiring? Did you need to do any soldering? I have no idea what these look like inside. (How about taking yours apart again and sending photos? :D ) ...and no, I didn&#39;t really mean that.

[snomhf]

You would ask about the inside! :blush:
That was the part that I&#39;m the least happy about. The originals had these little brackets moulded inside to hold the switch circuit boards. To have really done it right, I would have needed copies of those circuits so I could fabricate the mounts. I ended up getting lazy and just hot glued my switches into place. It&#39;s an ugly mess inside there! I&#39;ve since had ideas that I think solves those problems. And no, I didn&#39;t have to do any soldering although I may have broken a wire or two along the way and soldered them. I&#39;m good at soldering so that wouldn&#39;t have scared me off anyway.

Being a radio control aircraft builder from way back, I basically built these handles like I do an engine cowling, nacelle, fusealge, etc. I take a piece of that green plant potting foam stuff and carve it in the shape I want then fibreglas over that. I then cut the handle in half and scoop out the foam. That part is pretty easy.

I&#39;ve since had an idea for mass producing these things that until "your idea/my idea" (whatever) I couldn&#39;t figure out how to do. My new idea is a way to "injection mould" these pieces. To do that, I would need a good prototype which I can provide an exterior for but could not figure out an interior for. However, using these extra right-handed handles I have and the idea of sawing off the base and flipping it around, similar for the thumb hat and index finger button on the FS, I think I can build an interior prototype that will work. I would pour two plaster-of-paris moulds of the interior and exterior and put them together so that I can do an injection moulding of the parts. Once I have a mould of course, I can make as many handles as I buy resen for. I&#39;ve found a number of "hobby injection moulding kits" that sound like they&#39;d work. I&#39;d basically have two shots at this since I have two sets of handles.

I&#39;ve always wished I had a way of making handles for people on request. Injection moulding is really the only reasonable way to do this in any sort of "mass" production I think.

If you have any thoughts about this, please share. I&#39;m pretty handy and am willing to try most anything. I&#39;m going to buy some plaster-of-paris this week and try making some moulds of something just to get the experience.

I&#39;m amazed at the interest in this of late. Two other guys on other forums have started threads similar to yours. One guy even said he&#39;d pay double for a left-handed hotas. I&#39;m not looking to make any money doing this, I&#39;d just like to see other leftys have the setup I have. If I can get some decent moulds made, maybe that will be possible. I would just charge a guy the cost of the resen and the shipping the handles. That shouldn&#39;t be that much.

[Condor]

Snomhf,

I build flying models also. But I fly rubber and electric powered scale free flight. What you do with fiberglass I do with balsa, tissue, vacuformed thin plastic sheet, and blue or pink insulation foam. Your materials are better suited for joystick parts. . Please let me know if you experiment with flipping the throttle handle over. It has the advantage of keeping the mounts for the buttons, boards and wires as they come from the factory (or at least so I think. I don’t have one to look at.) Would the result put all the buttons and switches in the same positions as in your throttle? (It looks like it from the pictures.) Obviously the wires that run up into the handle will need to be cut and spliced or disconnected and reconnected. My preference would be the latter. Do you recall how the connections are made?

[snomhf]

Snomhf,

I build flying models also. But I fly rubber and electric powered scale free flight. What you do with fiberglass I do with balsa, tissue, vacuformed thin plastic sheet, and blue or pink insulation foam. Your materials are better suited for joystick parts. . Please let me know if you experiment with flipping the throttle handle over. It has the advantage of keeping the mounts for the buttons, boards and wires as they come from the factory (or at least so I think. I don’t have one to look at.) Would the result put all the buttons and switches in the same positions as in your throttle? (It looks like it from the pictures.) Obviously the wires that run up into the handle will need to be cut and spliced or disconnected and reconnected. My preference would be the latter. Do you recall how the connections are made?
[/b]

Hi Condor,
I have a couple of Gillows models hanging in my garage. I&#39;ve never gotten into electric though if I ever get back to RC, I will do that. I used to do the larger scale (1/4 scale, 1/8 scale) gas engine stuff. I need to do something with all the planes in my garage. It&#39;s been four or five years now since I&#39;ve done anything. My wife reminds me often. :)

I am indeed going to take "our" idea of flipping the throttle handle and sawing off the two buttons off the FS. I&#39;m hoping I will be able to use them as prototypes for these mouldings I&#39;m going to try to make. I&#39;m planning to stop by the craft store and buy some plaster-of-paris and see how it goes with making moulds. Next, I will be in the market for some kind of resen to make the parts out of. I&#39;m thinking of getting one of those big hypodermic needles you&#39;d use to inject gravy in turkeys and hams from a cooking store to use to inject the resen in the mould. I figure that would allow me to get the resen all the way down in the mould good. I&#39;ve never done this before so who knows if it will work or not. Worth experimenting.

As for the wiring. The throttle wiring consists of a wiring harness with a plug on the end that feeds down through a hole in the stem of the throttle handle. Flipping the handle over like we&#39;re talking about will not effect the mounts or anything. It&#39;s perfect actually. I feel kind of dumb for not thinking of that before. Even if the injection moulding idea doesn&#39;t work, you could certainly flip the handle and patch the hole and you&#39;d be in business.

I sent an email off to Mike from CH Products the other day explaining all this and asking for "official" support from CH. He came back saying he would help in any way he could. This is actually starting to look promising. What I would love to see happen is CH begin to manufacture these left-handed handles and sell them as replacement parts. Wouldn&#39;t that be cool?

I&#39;ll keep you posted on my progress.
-mark

[snomhf]

I bought a bucket of plaster-of-paris today. I finally found the right-handed handles I took off my gear. I&#39;ve been studying the handles and will start sawing stuff off them probably tomorrow night. It actually looks pretty promising.

Hopefully, I&#39;ll get some time this weekend to finish reversing the handles so I will have a good prototype to make the moulds from. I suspect it will be next week some time before I get to try making a mould. With hockey playoffs starting (Whoo Hoo, we&#39;re in -- Carolina Hurricanes) that will undoubtedly slow me down a little.

The craft store I went to today is actually pretty well equipped for this sort of thing. They had the resen for pouring the casting. It sure seems expensive: $20 for about a quart can. One of the first things I want to do after making the moulds is pour some water in them and measure it to get an idea how much resen it&#39;s going to take to make a set of handles. I&#39;d sure hate it if it takes two or three quarts as that could be $60 for handles. I really don&#39;t think it&#39;s going to take that much though. Hopefully I&#39;ll know soon.

BTW, I decided to create a new thread in the hardware section to show my progress on this project and give folks a chance to comment on it:

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=3152

[Condor]

This is good news. The volume shouldn&#39;t be that great. My major concern would be air bubbles and voids from tthe resin not filling all of the mold. I&#39;ve never done this. Hopefully it&#39;s not aproblem.

I just got my fighterstick yesterday. It will be interesting to see how much it improves my flying. I think it can be used left handed. The grip isn&#39;t any more akward than some other right handed sticks I&#39;ve used. The loss of use ofthe side 4-way is a big downside. So I look forward to seeing your progress. Meanwhile I will also practice right handed.

If this stick is as good as everyone says I won&#39;t be able to blame my stick for my poor flying anymore.

[snomhf]

This is good news. The volume shouldn&#39;t be that great. My major concern would be air bubbles and voids from tthe resin not filling all of the mold. I&#39;ve never done this. Hopefully it&#39;s not aproblem.
[/b]

I&#39;m going to stop by a kitchen store today and see if I can buy one of those hypodermic needles you use to inject gravey in turkeys and hams. I figure if I can get the needle all the way to the bottom of the mould then that should push the air to the top as it fills. Proofs in the puddin&#39;


I just got my fighterstick yesterday...[/b]
Great!
Well, if you ok with this, we can use you as our first guinea pig. If this really works, I can send you one of my first castings. Assuming all the mounts line up right etc. (I have an old gameport version that I&#39;m pretty sure the switches are the same for that I can test all this) you should simply be able to remove the eight screws from your stick, transfer all the switches over to the new one and screw it back on. That&#39;s the plan anyway.

Keep an eye on my thread in the hardware forum.

Where are you? I&#39;m in Raleigh, NC. I&#39;m willing to pretty much give you one of these handles for a small donation just to handle shipping. You have sort of helped in the design of this afterall.

Stay tuned

[Condor]

I&#39;m in Indiana. To long a drive to get together on a Saturday to try it out. Thanks for the offer. You&#39;re really running with this. I&#39;m probably going to go a little slow. Since I just got the stick I will probably want to use it for a while and make sure it has no problems before I open it up and void the warranty. I know CH has a great reputation but nobody is perfect. I&#39;ve found it can be used left handed. Not the best grip position and the side 4-way can&#39;t be used but at least I can try it for a while and test it out. I&#39;m also geting OK flying right hande but it will probably never be my preferance. If some one else expresses an interest to try the moldings immediately, by all means send them to that person. I want to give this a try but I hesitate to do it with a stick that hasn&#39;t been used. Hope I havn&#39;t rained on your parade.

[snomhf]

I&#39;m probably going to go a little slow. Since I just got the stick I will probably want to use it for a while and make sure it has no problems before I open it up and void the warranty... Hope I havn&#39;t rained on your parade.
[/b]

No way! You aren&#39;t raining on my parade at all! This is something I&#39;ve been wanting to do for a long time. There are lots of guys who have asked me about this and I&#39;m just wanting to provide a service to fellow leftys as well has have some fun with the hobby. I bet you&#39;ll change your mind when you see the end result and realize how easy it is to pull those handles off and install mine. :thumbsup: I never meant to pressure you in any way so don&#39;t take it that way. You can do whatever you want, you won&#39;t hurt my feelings!

BTW, be sure to monitor my thread in the hardware forum. I&#39;m getting ready to put some pictures up of the work I&#39;ve done so far. I&#39;m making good progress.

Enjoy that new flight stick!

-mark