How sophisticated are they?

[luap]

I have had CH products conected to my PC's since the 80's. They make great stuff but fell sadly behind the times in terms of sophistication. CH has always been the king of quality in my opinion, but companies like Thrustmaster and Saitek came along produced controllers with far more programming capability.

When the Thrustmaster Cougar came along, I jumped all over it. It is an engineering marvel and a programmers delight. it has also become difficult to enjoy a game while fighting the Boa constrictor springs that the unit has.

So, just how much programmability is in the CH USB gear. I have a Pro Throttle and Fighter Stick from the good old days of the game port. They served me well but just don't have much programming depth. Sadly enough they do not have any programmability in Windows XP because Bill thought that programming through the keyboard port posed a security threat to my home computer (lots of neighborhood espionage going, you know)

Somebody do a sales job and convince me that I should sell my Cougar and get new USB throttle and stick.

PSB

P.S. I do already have a set of USB Pro Pedals and a USB Flight Sim yoke so the Other 2 items would be a nice compliment and very easily integrated.

[Ding]

I'll let someone else make the sales pitch, but I'd like to chime in about the programmability. I just switched from a Saitek X36 to a CH USB HOTAS, and there is simply no comparison between the abilities of these two controllers. Saitek's SST allows you to map controller inputs to keyboard controls. CH's CM lets you actually program your controller.

You pretty much have three options with CH's hardware:
1) Leave the controller in DirectX mode and map the functionality in-game. This is the no-programming mode.
2) Set up a map using Bob Church's Control Manager. It's about as easy to use as Saitek's SST and similar in functionality.
3) Manually program the controller to just about anything you want (this is a nice example (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26)). This is the full-programming mode.

And, of course, you have the option of combining all three choices. Once you have your setup put together, you compile the map and download it into the controller (much like on the Cougar). This means that you don't have to have Saitek's SST running in the background, consuming 15MB of RAM.
There's simply no comparison between CH and Saitek WRT programmability.

I have no personal experience with the Cougar, but after spending a few hours at CougarWorld, I decided that CH is the better choice. Try it out for yourself - search for "Fighterstick."

[MarkShot]

I know what you mean about the Cougar.

I had the F22 stick and was able to make my own springs for it. So, I had an F22 with a very light touch and great programmability.

Unfortunately, there is a limit to what you can do to lighten the touch on the Cougar due to it's heavy metal construction. You just got have some substantial force to center that thing. Also, the design gives you 2X the resistance when moved on the diagonal. A protracted turning fight with that thing was murder; especially to the right as most of the force ended up on your thumb. The whole thing didn't work very well with my arthritis!

So, I purchased a complete set of CH controls. Programmability and actual usage, I think you will find them quite similar. I think the most noticeable difference is the absence of the two rotaries on the throttle.

[Revvin]

Sorry for the delay in replying I've been working away from home a few days. I owned a Cougar for about a year and a half and I don't believe there is anything the Cougar can do that CH can't with the addition of the CMS part of the Control Manager software. I decided to move back to CH because during that period of time owning a Cougar three of them developed problems which meant taking them back. The Cougar is an awesome looking HOTAS but unfortunately for me and quite a few other users the beauty was only skin deep.

The CH build quality is second to none my last gameport CH HOTAS lasted me around 5 years constant use and still sits in my wardrobe. Not only are they very durable but they feel just as good as the Cougar and the electronics and gimbals appear ever bit as durable and well built as the rest of the stick. On top of that CH has Bob Church working on the programming software which just gets better and better with every release with more features added regularly. I have found the CMS scripting easier to pick up than the Cougar logical programming.

What did surprise me about CH was when I emailed a while ago concerning a discussion in one of the newsgroups and they not only knew about it and had read it but also mentioned other discussions that were relevant in various other sim forums, unlike some companies they really seem to have their fingers on the pulse of the community and it's refreshing to know they do take an active interest in the flight sim community.

I reading that back it reads like a bit of a commercial but what I've posted is my experience with the Cougar and CH take it or leave it.

[MarkShot]

I had TM controls, since the very start.

TM was never very impressive in terms of quality. However, there was a time when their customer service was superb. Any product no matter how long ago it was purchased would be repaired or replaced. If you called or emailed them with a bad POT or spring, they would send you for free a bag or POTs and springs.

Once upon a time ...

[DNME]

It simply never ceases to amaze me why people would opt for a cougar.

Beware for the hype! :w00t:

(the smileys on this board are funny! :lol:)

[Icer]

Originally posted by luap@Jan 12 2004, 11:47 PM
I have had CH products conected to my PC's since the 80's.Â* They make great stuff but fell sadly behind the times in terms of sophistication.Â* CH has always been the king of quality in my opinion, but companies like Thrustmaster and Saitek came along produced controllers with far more programming capability.

When the Thrustmaster Cougar came along, I jumped all over it.Â* It is an engineering marvel and a programmers delight.Â* it has also become difficult to enjoy a game while fighting the Boa constrictor springs that the unit has.

So, just how much programmability is in the CH USB gear.Â* I have a Pro Throttle and Fighter Stick from the good old days of the game port.Â* They served me well but just don't have much programming depth.Â* Sadly enough they do not have any programmability in Windows XP because Bill thought that programming through the keyboard port posed a security threat to my home computer (lots of neighborhood espionage going, you know)

Somebody do a sales job and convince me that I should sell my Cougar and get new USB throttle and stick.

PSB

P.S.Â* I do already have a set of USB Pro Pedals and a USB Flight Sim yoke so the Other 2 items would be a nice compliment and very easily integrated.
I'll do a sales job.. sit down and relax, this will take a while... ;)

The Cougar is a fine piece of equipment, beautiful to look at and hold. IF Thrustmaster was still in existance with Cowboy Wilson and the boys then I would still own my Cougar, and most likely have it modded to UBER status to eliminate its major flaws - cheap spiking POTS, notchy gimbals, and over-strength springs. But Guillmot is in chage now and support is absolutely HORRENDOUS. I spent days trying to get access to the support site (you need to get a secret code ring from them 1st!), then sent a detailed explanation of the problem (a disintegrated Y Axis potentiometer rod). Two weeks later I get my 1st response telling me they are sorry about the delay but they are real busy taking care of other customers! Two more weeks go by, and they say they HAVE NO POTENTIOMETERS but as soon as they get them they will send one out. A month goes by and I get an email saying my parts are on their way. Two MORE weeks and there is my package from Guillmot!! Only thing is the package contains an Antennae POT!!! I email them back, tell them of their error, they email me insinuating that is what I ordered (I save ALL emails), I send them the original request for Y axis POT, they email me back a week later saying I now need to send in a copy of my original sales receipt and then they will allow me to request the part again!!!!!!!!! I do all this and now, about three months later, I STILL don't have the pot !! :thumbsup:

Now, the reality is within days of my pot crapping out a great guy on Frugal's forum sent me a used one and I had it in a couple weeks. The other thing is after month went by my fully operational Cougar went on EBay and sold in 10 minutes. I immediately purchased a CH Fighterstick, Pro Throttle, and Pro Pedals. As a TM user for the last 15 years I can say that this equipment is every bit as good as far as programmibility (and better in certain aspects) and is built to last. The stick is extremely precise in all directions, even diagonally. CH Products is a company that supports their equipment, Guillmot is not.

So it boils down to choices. Spent $500 MORE (Hall sensors and new gimbals) to get your Cougar to work as smoothly and accurately as a Fighterstick and hope none of the proprietary switched/buttons/hats ever break (and they WILL!) or unload it while there still seems to be a market and move to a company that you can trust and spend $200 for New USB Pro throttle and Fighterstick to complete your setup. My guess is your out of pocket after selling the Cougar will be less than $50.. It will be the best $50 you ever spent.

[Spidey]

Here is all i have to say...

I don't know of anyone that regrets buying CH. I don't hear them saying "Boy I wish I had bought a Cougar or a Saitek".

But I can tell you that I have seen at least 20 people or so in the differnt forums at SimHQ / Frugals that said "Man I wished I had bought a CH setup." I can also point out quite a few people that sold their Cougars the first chance they get and go the CH route.

With regards to programming, both CH and Cougar will do the job. But with reliability, even if you spend another $200 on the Cougar for the mods, it may not be up to CH standards.