CH Fighter Stick and CH Throttle

[marans]

I have the following controls: CH Pro pedal, Ch Fighter Stick, CH Throttle all in Gameport version.
I should like to know if is possible to do a up grade in it to USB version.
I am playing under windows 2000 and the gameport version dont works on it.
Thanks for any help
Marans
www.joker-pifpaf.org

[MichaelCHProd]

It is possible to "convert" them to USB but they will not be programable nor is it cost effective for you.

[Null_â„¢]

Yo,

Tell me more about Pro Pedals and a Gameport-to-USB adapter. I have seen the Belkin adapter at Buy.com for $4.11. The USB Fighterstick and USB Pro Throttle are in my future. Will a Gameport-to-USB adapter work with my old Pro Pedals?

I don't care about the toe brakes. I'd rather be flying in a furball than taxing down the runway. Not gonna brake for animals anyways. The PETA people hate me for that. So be it.

But can it be done? I sure would like to save a little cash here. That money could be better spent on a second HOTAS.

[Bob Church]

Gameport->USB stuff seems to work about half the time. Even if it works, though, it won't merge with the Control Manager, it's going to be seen as a second joysticks. If you've got a gameport, you might try the CHANLG08.EXE drivers from their website. The ProPedal driver in there will give you essentially what the converter is going to give you. Toe-brakes on X and Y, rudder on R, and the CHANLG08 drivers have a Windows button you can click for calibration.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[Null_â„¢]

Thanks for the input, Bob. Unfortunately though, while my Pro Pedals have mutiplied like tribbles over the years, my new gaming beastie lacks a gameport because the audio is onboard the mobo. And after I pick up my new CH Products HOTAS, I may not have funds right away to get the Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum PCI Sound Card that I want.

I'm just thinking of alternate possibilities here. I hate to toss out all this old gameport gear. There haven't been any hits on old CH joysticks and throttles at eBay lately. And besides, for those that want that old gameport stuff, twenty bucks for a new Fighterstick at the CH Products store is tough to beat.

[DDoutel]

If I'm not mistaken, you can get a high quality gameport adapter direct from CH; I believe they actually build them. I had one years ago that worked great.

[Bob Church]

That's the Gamecard III. I think they are still available, but they're ISA slot cards and if you've got one, then you and I are probably the only ones left that do. :) MS has pretty much made game ports illegal on motherboards, about like they did with ISA slots. In some cases, the chipset has the gameport, you just need to contact the mobo manufacturer and see about getting the cable and header. Otherwise, about your only choice is to get a sound card with a game port on it. You can get a good one and replace the sound system, or a cheap one that allows the sound to be disabled independently and just use it as a PCI game card. SBLive's go for like $20 on eBay, cheaper than the Gamecards anyway.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[MichaelCHProd]

Sorry Bob the Game Card 3 Automatic is not only discontinued but CH only has one. That's right, one, and I use it on one of our really old PC's to test game port controllers when they come in for repair. When it goes that's it. :)

[Bob Church]

I wasn't sure. There's certainly not much point in making them anymore. Actually, for a real collectors item I think I've got a Gamecard III for a PS2 around here somewhere. Probably in the PS2. :) Nothing like an '286 for real computing power.....

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[Bob Church]

Hey Michael!

I found it! Still got the box, the manual, the registration card, install diskette, and a CH catalog. A real trip down memory lane! When was the last time you got a support call on a FlightStick Pro for 3DO?. :) Interestingly, all the throttle wheels seem to be on the right side. Anyway, all the old stuff is in there, F16 FlightSick, Jetsticks, and the old Mach series. If you want it for the "CH Museum", let me know and I'll get it down to you. I'm probably never going to need it again. :)

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[Debby]

Ahhh the good ole days! That 3DO stick was a pretty good seller, surprisingly enough!

We actually still offer the old Mach 2 and 3, but the only request we get for them seems to be just from Europe.

[BLAZERBRUCE]

Ahh yes the Mach 3, My uncle has one, and I bet that thing still works like new :)


- Bruce

[ZG77_Spectre]

As a longtime user of a CH Products HOTAS gameport system, I was afraid I was stuck with Win98 since it was the last OS with DOS. I had setup a dualboot system on my daughter's computer and was pleasantly surprised to find that my F-16 Combat Stick/ Pro Throttle/Pro Pedals arrangement still worked. My solution was to retain Win98 on my C: drive and install XP Pro on my D: drive. So, I use Win98 for SpeedKeys programming of the Pro Throttle and I then play games via XP Pro. The beauty of the gameport Pro Throttle was in the EPROM (eraseable/programmable read-only memory). Since it uses non-volatile memory, I could use the DOS function of Win98 to program it through SpeedKeys and it would not be lost when disconnected even for long periods of time (which is never is...heh). BlazerBruce has done some very interesting work, but the SpeedKeys nut has, to my knowledge, remained un-crackable and that IS the lynchpin in my particular HOTAS. DOS itself will fit on a floppy and my entire Pro Throt folder is only 1.05MB including many template files I have never used (approx. 3KB each). With HDD capacities going up and prices coming down, it would seem easy enough to partition a few MBs off expressly for re-programming the Pro Throt files. One of the things that lured me to the CH Pro Throttle was its ability to make programmable any analog joystick used with it (gameport, of course). My stuff has worked flawlessly for over 8 years of hardcore flight simming and I only in the last month had to replace the pots in my Combat Stick (which was very easy to do, but that's another story). I'm sure the USB stuff is great, but there's a lot of life left in the gameport stuff (running mine through an SB Live card even though my mobo has onboard sound, which can be used simultaenously).

[MichaelCHProd]

SpeedKeys is great stuff but once you try the Control Manager you never look back.


Once again...Thanks Bob. :salute:


Keep the GC3 my collection is large enough already, although I am sure your collection is significantly larger. Besides I am sure you would hate to loose another exhibit in the Bob Church Game Controller Museum. B)

[BLAZERBRUCE]

ZG77_Spectre,

Crackng the SpeedKeys code sadly isnt the problem, its Windows. I have been working with several, actually, alot of open source drivers for I/O programmers and sure you can get the serial port to work without a problem, but trying to get the keyboard port open access and not killing the mouse at the same time isnt very easy. I have even taken several different sources, combined, and added lines of code, granted access only to certain address's and in the end XP laughs at me. Now, this is good news for those of you with ForceFX joysticks because of the serial port crack, but the keyboard issue is not soo good. Someday I hope to get it working, and now taking on some other projects, I am moving on for a few to get focused on other issues. (Linux and XP bootdisk update)

- Bruce

[Bob Church]

Hi Debby,

>> Ahhh the good ole days! That 3DO stick was a pretty good seller, surprisingly enough! <<

I never used one, but it was supposed to be a pretty advanced system at the time. Seems to me they died back in &#39;96 or so. It was just odd, I looked at that brochure and it said "Flightstick Pro for 300" and I could not for the life of me figure out what a "300" was. It finally registered that it was a "D" and then "Oh yeah! I remember them!". :)

>> We actually still offer the old Mach 2 and 3, but the only request we get for them seems to be just from Europe. <<

I didn&#39;t know you were still making them for the Consumer side at all. I&#39;ve got that stick mechanism in the larger base with the palm-rest that the OEM side sent up. I really like that ball gimbal mechanism. I get email all the time from people that travel a lot on business and are looking for something small that they can stick in a suitcase and then play games on a laptop when they&#39;re away. Maybe it would sell here, too.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[Bob Church]

Hi Michael,

>> Keep the GC3 my collection is large enough already.. <<

Okay. It is getting to be quite a pile of controllers, actually. One of these days it&#39;s going to fall over on me and that will be that, crushed by a FighterStick. :)

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[MichaelCHProd]

I can&#39;t think of a better way to go...... ok I could but this is not the time or place to talk about it B)

[ZG77_Spectre]

BlazerBruce, you&#39;ve contributed greatly to the continued use of CH Products gameport controllers. CH&#39;s own FAQs chronicled the demise of SpeedKeys due to Microsoft&#39;s having closed the keyboard interface "for security reasons". So, it&#39;s great that you&#39;ve got more explorable avenues to travel. Thanks for your selfless works. :salute: I can still do what needs doing with my dualboot system.

I&#39;m sure Michael is right, the Control Manager interface for the USB gear is doubtless great stuff. However, as good as CH Products&#39; stuff is, it is somewhat pricey. That being said, I consider it an investment in longterm, high quality gaming and have never regretted having spent the money. The prices of the USB gear are pretty much inline with what the gameport gear sold for eight years ago, so it&#39;s a better deal than ever. As much as I&#39;d like to have it, and priorities of family being what they are, I must continue to squeeze every ounce of gaming out of my HOTAS rig until it can go no more...and that ain&#39;t in sight :thumbsup: !

[BLAZERBRUCE]

ZG77_Spectre,

Thanks for the comment, I&#39;m gonna keep at it untill I prove Microsoft wrong lol :D

-Bruce :cheers:

[rssmps]

Originally posted by Bob Church@Apr 28 2004, 02:53 AM
Otherwise, about your only choice is to get a sound card with a game port on it. You can get a good one and replace the sound system, or a cheap one that allows the sound to be disabled independently and just use it as a PCI game card.

Bob (or anyone else that knows the answer):

I just got a MSI neo2 platinum board and ran into the same problem of not having a game port to connect my pedals to.

You mentioned disabling sound, that sounds like exactly what I want to do.
I want to use the on board 6 ch sound, but would like to use the game port from the second sound card.

Do you have any details in how I would do that? Is it possible to install my old sound card and just use the game port?
is there anything that I need to do in terms of IRQs?
Where do I specify which card is the default sound output?

Thanks!

[Bob Church]

Well, the usual deal is to go into the Device Manager, find the sound card, and check the box that says "Disable in this profile". The only thing that can be a problem is that some cards apparently let you disable them independently, others will kill the gameport at the same time.

You might check with your motherboard manufacturer first. In a lot of cases the gameport is there but they just don&#39;t supply the DB15 plug and cable. If you can get hold of the right DB15/Cable Assembly, that may be all you need.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[No Use For A Name]

Thanks for the info guys...I seem to have the same problem; built in sound with no gameport. Finding a Gamecard is almost impossible now.
Just incase any of you were looking for a Gamecard 3( or any old computer hardware), check out

www.recycledgoods.com

They have a bunch of old discontinued stuff for sale...only problem is that there&#39;s very few quantities, and it&#39;s kind of pricey (who&#39;s going to compete?). I saw a PCI Gamecard 3 for $50, but there&#39;s only one. Just letting you all know.

<div class=\'quotetop\'>QUOTE</div><div class=\'quotemain\'>[SIZE=7]He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man[/b][/quote]

[BLAZERBRUCE]

No Use For A Name,

If your looking for a good gameport, go for a soundblaster 128 card, cheap, easy to find and works great.


-Bruce

[MichaelCHProd]

"No Use For A Name" (NUFAN) for short.....

If someone tells you he has a PCI Gamecard 3 for sale call him a liar. CH was the onyl manufacturer of the Gamecard 3 and we NEVER made a PCI version. We made a ISA version and a MCA verison.

[mekon]

Hi, I&#39;ve just made the mistake of upgrading from win98SE to WinXP[just so I could get Doom3 running],I now find my CHForceFX stick ,with generic throttle in a &#39;Y&#39; splitter and plugged into Thrustmaster Rudder pedals,which all worked perfectly in Win98,is now twitcht,unresponsive in my favourite Forgotten Battles.This is despite downloading the CH sites Winxp compatibility Drivers.I&#39;m not bothered about the Force feedback effects,which I hardly ever used anyway.I just want to get the Joystick to be as smooth as it was before,which strangely enough.the throttle and rudders are now!Does anybody know a way to do this.I was thinking of this G3 Gamecard,or is there a way to make my current Sounblaster Live Gameport faster,say by altering its Input Output/ Resources?Is this possible?Has anybody had a similiar problem?I&#39;hate to have to abandon my Hardware and have to go USB.On the other hand I could always put Win98 back on,but Hell thats going backwards.Please Help me somebody!!
Mekon.

[Bob Church]

If you&#39;re in the same Y-cable configuration and the pedals and throttle are working (throttle buttons probably won&#39;t be), then the CH drivers and game port must be working. You probably don&#39;t have an ISA slot to plug the GC3 into anyway, but In any case the CH drivers shouldn&#39;t be fussy about speed. It really sounds more like an assignment problem in the sim itself. If the drivers or the gameport were at fault, you wouldn&#39;t see any axes working. How do the controls look in the Test Screen?

- Bob

[mekon]

Bob.Thanks for your rapid response,your right my Mobo hasn&#39;t an ISA slot,and as you say the Drivers must be on,also it always indicates it is connected and&#39;OK&#39;.On the Test screen I see all the axis and the cursors,My problem seems to be that when you calibrate with forward or left stick.the response is to immediately move fully in the opposite direction,and then back to the correct direction,this happens every time you move from centre.However when you move Back or Right,the cursor moves in the correct fashion,this is on both calibrate and on Test screens,with the THrottle and Rudder,though the movement is correct,at all times.The result is after you apply then go into Forgotten battles,this effect is duplicated in theplanes flight model,So its jittery and hard to control.I&#39;ve tried all of the Axis,Dead zone and response calibrations.both in the Game Applet[WInXP] aswell as in FB&#39;s controller options,all to no avail.The whole setup was perfectly smooth and responsive in win98 of course.I get hte feeling its not the game .but a Windows problem,only the throttle [generic].and the rudders[Thrustmaster Elite].still have smooth response in game.Could it be the soundcards Gameport[Sounblaster-Live ] is not fast enough?Is it possible to alter the Input/Output resources.which are currently B000-B007?Also I should mention that when I try to calibrate the controls as anything other than CH products,like for example a 3-axis.2-button joystick with throttle and rudder padals.the cursor moves all over the place you can move it partially but not in a complete circle,and it sometimes just freezes in one position and you have to start over but I haven&#39;t been able to callibrate it yet as anything else.other than a CH product.Perhaps its because its an analogue driver.What did you mean by assignments exactly?I was hoping there was a simple solution to this ,as I was very happy with my control setup in Win98.hope you can suggest something else,I see theres a CH XP Boot up disc for the flightstick,would this be any use in making the XP Analog drivers work more smoothly?Thanks a lot,Colin.

[Bob Church]

Hi Colin,

>> Bob.Thanks for your rapid response, your right my Mobo hasn&#39;t an ISA slot,and as you say the Drivers must be on, also it always indicates it is connected and &#39;OK&#39;. <<

Okay. Well, the "OK" means it can see at least the X axis, so, again, it sounds like the system must basically be in place and functioning.

>> On the Test screen I see all the axis and the cursors,My problem seems to be that when you calibrate with forward or left stick.the response is to immediately move fully in the opposite direction, and then back to the correct direction, this happens every time you move from centre. However when you move Back or Right, the cursor moves in the correct fashion, this is on both calibrate and on Test screens, with the THrottle and Rudder, though the movement is correct, at all times. The result is after you apply then go into Forgotten battles,this effect is duplicated in theplanes flight model, So its jittery and hard to control. I&#39;ve tried all of the Axis,Dead zone and response calibrations. both in the Game Applet[WInXP] swell as in FB&#39;s controller options,all to no avail. <<

That movement right and back first is usually a hardware problem. Those are the "maximum" values and usually what it means is that the stick has completely disconnected for a brief instant. Sometimes it&#39;s bac connections to the pots, sometimes it&#39;s just a bad connection on one of the gameport cables. It can also happen with dirty pots, but there it tends to happen right near center. When you go from stick left to stick center to stick right, for example, there&#39;a a point where the gimbal assembly is seeing force in one direction and then the force switches to going in the other direction. The pot wiper can slip a little, it opens up for an instant, and you see that big right/back spike.

>> The whole setup was perfectly smooth and responsive in win98 of course. I get hte feeling its not the game .but a Windows problem,only the throttle [generic].and the rudders[Thrustmaster Elite].still have smooth response in game. Could it be the soundcards Gameport [Sounblaster-Live ] is not fast enough? <<

That was really a DOS problem, I don&#39;t think it ever really mattered to Windows. If it was a problem, the stick would completely disconnect if you pulled the throttle wheel all the way back and pulled the stick handle down into the lower right corner. Those positions produce the maximum values and that&#39;s where the "too slow" part shows up. In earlier versions back around Win95 there was a problem with one version of the VPPro drivers (the original, not the CHANLG08.EXE drivers that are there now) where that used to show up. It was easy to spot, though. Put the throttle wheel forward, it was okay. Put it at min throttle and you&#39;d get an immediate "Disconnected" message.

>> Is it possible to alter the Input/Output resources.which are currently B000 - B007? <<

No. Those are just the port addresses and they&#39;re fixed for the card. They don&#39;t really make any difference to operation. They used to be 201 or 200..207 because those were ISA port addresses, the B000..B700 are PCI addresses. Anyway, they have to be right or you wouldn&#39;t get any response at all.

>> Also I should mention that when I try to calibrate the controls as anything other than CH products, like for example a 3-axis. 2-button joystick with throttle and rudder padals.the cursor moves all over the place you can move it partially but not in a complete circle,and it sometimes just freezes in one position and you have to start over but I haven&#39;t been able to callibrate it yet as anything else.other than a CH product. Perhaps its because its an analogue driver. <<

Well, it ought to work in Windows as a 2-Axis/4-Button stick. That&#39;s sort of the minimum thing that Windows will even think of as a joysticks. The CH drivers will be nicer, but that should work in any case whether the CH drivers are installed or not. If that&#39;s flaky, it may be something to do with shared interrupts with the sound card, etc. Before you upgraded to XP, did you by any chance check over at the USBMan&#39;s page? Sounds odd for an analog stick, but there are several settings in the BIOS and things that can create conflicts, and I&#39;ve heard (unsubstantiated)rumors that the USB 2.0 stuff can whack analog joystick ports in some cases. Anyway, it might be worth a look.

>> What did you mean by assignments exactly? <<

I&#39;m not an IL2FB guru, but it seems to me it has a screen where you assign functions to your controllers. I was referring to that. You would need to have the X and Y axes assigned to ailerons and elevators in-game for them to be operational.

>> I was hoping there was a simple solution to this...<<

This is Windows, there is no such thing. :)

>> ... as I was very happy with my control setup in Win98.hope you can suggest something else, I see theres a CH XP Boot up disc for the flightstick,would this be any use in making the XP Analog drivers work more smoothly. <<

I don&#39;t think so. The Boot Disk is to allow you to download to the FighterStick and ProThrottle, something you can&#39;t do directly under Windows XP. I don&#39;t know why it would affect the stability of the stick at all.

Anyway, maybe something in all this will suggest something for you to try. Let us know if you have any luck!

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[mekon]

Bob,
Once again thanks for answering my post.After seeing your reply I.m thinking maybe it is a Hardware problem.If it is ,could you tell me ,how do you go about cleaning the pots?Open it up and spray in WD40,or is that bad?I&#39;m not too well informed on tech. matters.As to the other things I went on the USBMan&#39;s site and couldn.t find any conflict with gameport info.I&#39;m going to try my controls on a friends XP PC to see if it still does it.But the fact it was OK in win98 a few days ago still makes me think software.I also Upgraded from the Win 98 version rather than reformatting ,and the old Force 5 FX drivers where still on at the time.Could this be causing a conflict?and would it be an idea to use a Clear Calibration Utility which I got off one of the forums,its by Logitech but clears all Calibration info for games controllers off of the system,so I could perhaps install the CH-ANLG XP drivers afresh.Meantime I&#39;ll try to check the Interrupts for the soundcard to see if its being used by anything else.THanks a lot Bob.
Colin.

[Bob Church]

Hi Colin,

>> Once again thanks for answering my post.After seeing your reply I.m thinking maybe it is a Hardware problem.If it is ,could you tell me ,how do you go about cleaning the pots?Open it up and spray in WD40,or is that bad? <<

I&#39;ve seen a lot of people say they used WD40 and it worked, but I&#39;d worry about the plastic. "Tuner Cleaner" from Radio Shack is probably better and you can usually squirt it into the slot where the terminals come out of the pot, then work the pot back and forth. I&#39;ve also used plain old rubbing alcohol, then just squirted a little of the cleaner in to lubricate it. I&#39;ve never opened the Force Feedback, though, and I&#39;m not at all sure what&#39;s involved in doing that. For most sticks, it&#39;s a matter of getting the bottom off and remembering where all the pieces go. You might talk to Michael, he probably knows what the problems are.

>> I&#39;m not too well informed on tech. matters.As to the other things I went on the USBMan&#39;s site and couldn.t find any conflict with gameport info.I&#39;m going to try my controls on a friends XP PC to see if it still does it. <<

I think the problem is usually a shared interrupt, the soundcard sharing an interrupt with something else, that creates the problems.

>> But the fact it was OK in win98 a few days ago still makes me think software.I also Upgraded from the Win 98 version rather than reformatting ,and the old Force 5 FX drivers where still on at the time.Could this be causing a conflict? <<

Installing over another Windows version is usually a bad idea, though whatever drivers were there shouldn&#39;t run in XP anyway. I don&#39;t really know. I&#39;d have probably backed everything up and done a clean install, but I can&#39;t say for sure one way or the other that it would cause problems for the sticks.

>> and would it be an idea to use a Clear Calibration Utility which I got off one of the forums,its by Logitech but clears all Calibration info for games controllers off of the system,so I could perhaps install the CH-ANLG XP drivers afresh. <<

Windows calibration normally wouldn&#39;t bother the CH drivers since they use their own calibration data, and calibration usually doesn&#39;t cause spikes in any case. It&#39;ll be off-center or it won&#39;t go to the edge of the box, things like that. Still, it&#39;s Windows and sometimes things interact in unexpected ways. ClrCalib is a good utility, I&#39;d give it a try. It can&#39;t hurt.

>> Meantime I&#39;ll try to check the Interrupts for the soundcard to see if its being used by anything else. THanks a lot Bob. <<

You&#39;re welcome, Colin! Good luck with it!

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[mekon]

Bob, Appreciate your help,very much,I.m about to get the pots clean,might even think of replacing them,as CH apparantly,still supplies them.But I see a mention in an older post that the Creative Soundblaster Live Gameport I&#39;m using,is really a Midi Port,rather than a true gameport,and is therefore too slow particularly in WinXP.This could account for why my controls worked perfectly in Win98.So can you tell me,if my problem may be solved by changing to a soundcard with a faster.or at least a full Gameport,and perhaps what that might be?Audigy.perhaps?
With your help I think I&#39;m gradually getting there,thanks once again,Colin.

[MichaelCHProd]

A faster game port would be great :) .... but they don&#39;t exsist anymore :( . The only really good game ports where purpose built. i.e. Thrustmasters ACM or our Game Card 3 Automatic. Both were ISA and both have been discontinuned for quite some time.

In the off chance you find one to purchase double check to make sure you a have a ISA slot as almost all new mother oards don&#39;t.

Only other option really is to look for a really old PCI sound card and hope that it has a decent port on it. Of course I doubt you will get EAX sound throught it :(