Why do I have to Recal my Pedals post-reboot??

[Wazoo]

I'm running XP with CM 3.0 and Fighterstick, Throttle and Peddles (all USB)

After I reboot, my peddles ALWAYS have a slight off-center push to them as if I am pushing the left peddle forward just a tad.

Needless to say, go into LOMAC or my oter sims... and I'm left slipping!

Any ideas?

Wazoo

[MichaelCHProd]

Are you using a USB hub?

How do you get it to center correctly?

[Wazoo]

Originally posted by MichaelCHProd@Jan 20 2004, 12:28 AM
Are you using a USB hub?

How do you get it to center correctly?
Hey Michael,

The Throttle and Stick are on a hub (eazch on a different hub actually).

The Peddles go right into a USB port on the back of the computer.

As fas as "how" I calibrate (assuming this is the question you are asking...), I do it through the CM when in Direct (i.e. non-mapped mode).

Thaks for any help!

Wazoo

[Bob Church]

Have you tried increasing the deadzone? Deadzone in the map is set when you assign the axis. For Direct Mode, you can set it on the "Axis Settings" tab in the Calibration screen. Without deadzone, you're essentially balancing on a knife edge. It's very difficult to get it not to lean slightly one way or the other. Try dialing in a little more deadzone and see if it helps. Actually, try dialing in a lot of deadzone and see if it helps. If it does, then reduce it and see what the minimum percentage is that will keep you centered. That will give an idea of how far off center it actually is.

One other thing, a lot of the sims model engine torque which causes you to need a little rudder. You can usually test for that, just switch back to keyboard control and see if it goes away. Keyboards make lousy controllers, but they generally center absolutely perfectly. If you need a little rudder trim, it's not hard to set up with CMS.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[MichaelCHProd]

So if you boot up and open Game Controllers do you see this "list to port"? What is the raw data on it? After you calibrate does it go away completely or will it come back in a game (before you reboot of course)?

[Wazoo]

Originally posted by Bob Church@Jan 21 2004, 01:59 AM
Have you tried increasing the deadzone? Deadzone in the map is set when you assign the axis. For Direct Mode, you can set it on the "Axis Settings" tab in the Calibration screen. Without deadzone, you're essentially balancing on a knife edge. It's very difficult to get it not to lean slightly one way or the other. Try dialing in a little more deadzone and see if it helps. Actually, try dialing in a lot of deadzone and see if it helps. If it does, then reduce it and see what the minimum percentage is that will keep you centered. That will give an idea of how far off center it actually is.

One other thing, a lot of the sims model engine torque which causes you to need a little rudder. You can usually test for that, just switch back to keyboard control and see if it goes away. Keyboards make lousy controllers, but they generally center absolutely perfectly. If you need a little rudder trim, it's not hard to set up with CMS.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com
Hey Bob,

No... I have not messed with the deadzone yet as I'd prefer not to mask the problem until I have no alternatives.

Not a torque thing either as I'm not a prop-sim guy... ;)

Here are two screen shots that show what I see pre and post calibration.

Notice how the Z axis on the peddles is slightly above center after reboot:

http://members.cox.net/pwasserman/Uncalibrated%20Peddles.JPG

And here is what it looks like after I calibrate them:

http://members.cox.net/pwasserman/Calibrated%20Peddles.JPG

This is a strange one to me....

Thanks!

Paul "Wazoo" Wasserman

[Wazoo]

Originally posted by MichaelCHProd@Jan 21 2004, 03:03 AM
So if you boot up and open Game Controllers do you see this "list to port"? What is the raw data on it? After you calibrate does it go away completely or will it come back in a game (before you reboot of course)?
Michael,

I do not see anything that says "list to port".

What am I missing??

Paul

[Bob Church]

That 202 at center looks pretty strange. With the ones I've seen it should be sitting nearer 128 and hitting near 0 and 255 out at the ends. Some of the early CH stuff had autocalibration though, and I don't know if it ever was on the pedals. Older CombatSticks don't line up until you move them through their full range a couple of times. Anyway, if the raw values are only going to 255 on full right pedal, then it looks to me like something's just not right mechanicallym the pot is too far off center. Are the pedals of recent vintage?

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[Wazoo]

Originally posted by Bob Church@Jan 21 2004, 10:20 AM
That 202 at center looks pretty strange. With the ones I've seen it should be sitting nearer 128 and hitting near 0 and 255 out at the ends. Some of the early CH stuff had autocalibration though, and I don't know if it ever was on the pedals. Older CombatSticks don't line up until you move them through their full range a couple of times. Anyway, if the raw values are only going to 255 on full right pedal, then it looks to me like something's just not right mechanicallym the pot is too far off center. Are the pedals of recent vintage?

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com
Not realizing what the heck that Raw Data box was for, I've never paid any attention to it.

So, after reading your reply, I rebooted to have a closer look. I got a reading of 200 on the Z-axis with the little bubble above centerline.

I also noticed that the Y axis was reading 22 for the right toe brake.

I then decided to move the peddles/brakes around to see what happened WITHOUT going to recalibration.

I cannot get the Y axis to go to 0 like the left.... but more strangely, moving the peddles back and forth made them center up on the Z axis without having to recalibrate. Even stranger is that *sometimes* the Z value will pop into the low teens or, as I currently write this, the Z axis is at 1.

However, I just popped over to the CM manager, gave a little right rudder, let it pop back to center on its own, and it now reads Z axis as 200.

The peddles were purchases within the last year or two....

Of note, I've had a few times recently while flying LOMAC, where suddenly full right rudder will start on its own with any input from me. I have been contributing this to a buggy LOMAC.... but I am beginning to suspect I might have a pot issue in the peddles.... :(

Thanks for your continued assistance,

Paul

[Bob Church]

I was thinking the same thing, actually. The center shouldn't move. One thing that does happen, though, is that you calibrate the same way each time, so you do a left full pedal, then a right full pedal (or vice versa). That means that, unless you're moving it to the center of the backlash, you're always reading the center value at one side of the backlash region, which can result in that predilection to come out on one side or another.

You might try a backlash test. Push the pedals full right, then slowly let them come back by themselves until they stop, then note the Raw data value where they stopped. Do the same from the left side. You'll have two Raw values, the difference between them is proportional to the backlash. If it amounts to very much, the pot might be loose or maybe the mechanics of the thing aren't quite right.

WRT the pedal only going to 22 released, I wouldn't worry about that. Ideally, the raw value goes 0 to 255, practically the pots don't always make it out to the ends and so it sets off zero a little bit. The calibration will sort it out. The main thing is that it be repeatable, especially the center point on centering axes. So long as the same center value comes back, the scaling will bring it right into line. If the center value isn't repeatable, the only option is to crank out the deadzone until you've covered the difference between the worst case right hand and left hand raw values.

The Raw value display can be quite helpful. What it's showing you is the number that the stick is sending back before the CM scales things. The graphical display is showing you what that looks like after the scaling routines take care of things. The devices all ideally go 0 to 255 with 128 at center. Again, practically it doesn't happen, but they shouldn't be too far off. With the X and Y pots, you can adjust the trim wheels to give you a 128 center, then calibrate from there.

Anyway, if you've got the time and the inclination, try the backlash test and lets see if things are moving around on you.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com

[MichaelCHProd]

Sorry for the nautical term. Bob is right the pedals do not look good. Send me an e-mail ( Michael@CHProducts.com ) and I will issue you a RMA number so that we can play with them in the repair section and you can play with good pedals.

[Wazoo]

Originally posted by MichaelCHProd@Jan 21 2004, 05:29 PM
Sorry for the nautical term. Bob is right the pedals do not look good. Send me an e-mail ( Michael@CHProducts.com ) and I will issue you a RMA number so that we can play with them in the repair section and you can play with good pedals.
Ahh.... "list to port"... I get it now... but would it not be "list to starboard" as it is on the right side? ;)

Thanks Michael. I'll send you an email.

Regards,

Paul

[Wazoo]

Originally posted by Bob Church@Jan 21 2004, 03:37 PM
I was thinking the same thing, actually. The center shouldn't move. One thing that does happen, though, is that you calibrate the same way each time, so you do a left full pedal, then a right full pedal (or vice versa). That means that, unless you're moving it to the center of the backlash, you're always reading the center value at one side of the backlash region, which can result in that predilection to come out on one side or another.

You might try a backlash test. Push the pedals full right, then slowly let them come back by themselves until they stop, then note the Raw data value where they stopped. Do the same from the left side. You'll have two Raw values, the difference between them is proportional to the backlash. If it amounts to very much, the pot might be loose or maybe the mechanics of the thing aren't quite right.

WRT the pedal only going to 22 released, I wouldn't worry about that. Ideally, the raw value goes 0 to 255, practically the pots don't always make it out to the ends and so it sets off zero a little bit. The calibration will sort it out. The main thing is that it be repeatable, especially the center point on centering axes. So long as the same center value comes back, the scaling will bring it right into line. If the center value isn't repeatable, the only option is to crank out the deadzone until you've covered the difference between the worst case right hand and left hand raw values.

The Raw value display can be quite helpful. What it's showing you is the number that the stick is sending back before the CM scales things. The graphical display is showing you what that looks like after the scaling routines take care of things. The devices all ideally go 0 to 255 with 128 at center. Again, practically it doesn't happen, but they shouldn't be too far off. With the X and Y pots, you can adjust the trim wheels to give you a 128 center, then calibrate from there.

Anyway, if you've got the time and the inclination, try the backlash test and lets see if things are moving around on you.

- Bob

The StickWorks
http://www.stickworks.com
Bob,

Once again (as I have been over my many years trying to figure out joysticks) I am thankful for the time and effort you take to assist those of us in need.

You are one of those people who reaffirms my faith in the Internet and makes up for the myriad of pinheads one runs into out here.. :D

Thanks again!

Paul

[MichaelCHProd]

My bad I had the numbers backwards. :drunk:

I tell you somtimes I am convinced I spent way to many of my formative years three sheets to the wind. :drunk:

At least it was with your tax dollars. :)

[zatoh]

I have been having a similar problem recently. My CH Pro Pedals seem to be constantly pushed a little bit to the left. In the xp game controllers panel the z axis is always floating a little bit above the centerline. I'm using CM3, so it's the CH software that comes up when I click the controllers control panel. I tried to test the deviation from 0 when pushing each pedal fully forward and slowly releasing them. The numbers don't show up, or show up only intermittently. (When I push the pedals the raw data numbers don't move.) I have heard about the pots coming loose on pedals, and I think that this might be what has happened. These pedals are about three years old and I don't mind opening them up.

Any ideas would be welcome before I reach for the tool kit.

Zatoh.

[MichaelCHProd]

Now you mentioned the raw data does not move is it on one axis (the Z) or do you see the static numbers on the X and Y as well? When you say the numbers don't show up are you telling me that they read "0" or that they are not moving from whatever number is there?

When you open the Test/Calibrate window up do your numbers if perfect should read..

X = 0
Y = 0
Z = 128

(+ or - 5)

[zatoh]

When I open up the control panel, all the numbers in the raw data window read 0. When I move the toe brakes the x and y numbers go to 255 and then back to 0 when I release them. When I slide the pedals the z number sometimes just stays at 0, sometimes it finds a number (this time 43) and stays there as I slide the pedals and also stays there when I release them.

The pedals still work in my games, I just have to add a little right rudder when landing. Sometimes they are centered, sometimes they give a little left input. It seems random, and if I move the pedals all the way a couple of times they will occasionally recenter.

Zatoh

[MichaelCHProd]

They did not do this before? What chipset is your USB host controller? Are you using a hub? Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party? Ok, the last one I threw in on a whim. B)

[zatoh]

I'm using an nForce 2 chipset (MSI) and an Athlon xp 2800+ cpu. The rudders are plugged into a usb pci card. The rudders also exhibited this behavior when plugged into the usb ports directly on the mobo, and they also did this on a previous computer. I don't know about the raw data numbers not showing up before because I used to always use Window's panel rather than CM, and I don't think the windows version shows the raw data.

I do know that on my previous machine the pedals occasionally showed up as left of center when at rest. I kind of learned how to compensate in my games because I didn't think that there was anything that could be done about it since the pedals don't have trim wheels. However, I recently read a post about the pots coming loose on pedals.

These pedals have had a lot of use in the last few years. I have always had to go into the control panel whenever I start my computer and cycle them a few times to get them to center. That's how I know that they've been left of center for a long time. I have also noticed that my brand new fighterstick seems to already be centered when the computer turns on. This was not the case with my old combatstick.

Zatoh

[MichaelCHProd]

I am not crazy about the nForce chipset but if you like I can give you a RMA number so you can send the Pedals in. ;)

[zatoh]

I know what you mean about the nForce. Mine won't even recognize my Thrustmaster or Saitek sticks, only the CH. I've pretty much decided to go with an Asus Intel chipset for my next build, which will be sometime next year.

The computer still accepts input from the pedals even though the raw data numbers (for the Z slider only!?) don't show up in the control panel. The pedals being slightly off center may be a result of their being old, since they also did it on a previous machine after a lot of use. I've kind of gotten used to flying with a certain amount of right input to keep them even, except that they don't do it all the time.

Sending the pedals in seems kind of drastic given the postal rates where I live (Japan). I was hoping to determine whether the problem with my pedals was loose pots or not, but I need to be able to look at the raw data numbers to do that. If the problem is loose hardware, I have no qualms about opening them up and doing some surgery.

Zatoh

[MichaelCHProd]

Ok the shipping across the Pacific is not cool. You might want to help yourself a bit with a PCI to USB expansion card with a decent chipset like...

INTEL
OPTI
NEC
LUCENT

The card I use at work on my VIA ( :thumbsdown: ) test box is this (http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=153#) one from D-Link but you don't need to go with a USB 2.0 card. I picked up a no name 4 port NEC chipset USB 1.1 PCI card at the local Mom and Pop PC shop for $9.99 for the wifes PC.

[zatoh]

I bought an NEC USB2 pci card about three weeks ago for $20. (You should see the computer components stores near my office. There were about half a dozen USB pci cards alone, and just about every mobo made is there on the shelves to be looked at. Drool.) My stick and pedals are hooked up to the PCI USB card, and there's still a port left for throttle when I get one. The card didn't have any effect on the pedals, but I got it to try to solve a different problem.

The fact that the pedals will sometimes center if I cycle them all the way a few times made me originally think that the problem was mechanical. The problem with the raw data not showing up is a new twist, and may or may not be related. Also, I reinstalled Strike Fighters last night and the pedals seemed centered. Perhaps SFP1 has a really high default deadzone.

Michael, I'm sure that other posters on this board will agree that we really appreciate all the effort you put into seeing that we can get our CH gear working properly. Thanks for all your input.

Zatoh

[MichaelCHProd]

Ok now I am really intrigued :blink: . Shoot me an E-mail and I will try and get something going either here or with our Japanese Distributor.

[zatoh]

Well, I couldn't resist any longer. I opened up the pedals. (I got a big kick out of the sticker on the bottom that said "for home or office use". I tried to think of some reason to take the pedals to my office.) Everything seemed to be in working order. The pot connected to the slider had a tiny amount of wiggle in its mounting to the base, but it didn't seem to be enough to cause the pedals to be off center. Nevertheless, I slapped a small piece of duct tape over it to hold it in place a little better just as a test. I actually got the pedals back together on the first try, which I didn't think would happen, and plugged them back in. When I went to the calibration panel the pedals were centered. After pushing the right pedal all the way up and releasing to center the ball was resting slightly below center, but the center line was still within the ball, not beyond it like before. Pushing the left pedal forward and back to rest left the ball slightly above center, but the centerline again was still within the ball. Apparently there was just enough wiggle in the pot's connection to the mounting to cause the pedals to be to the left when at rest. There's still some wiggle, but it's smaller and more centered now. Duct tape is not the most solid way to secure the pot, I guess.

However, the most important point is that I tried several games and my rudders are centered in all of them. I'll use the pedals as they are until they go out again, then I'll open them up and do a more solid fix. I don't really care about the raw data numbers not showing up in the calibration panel as it could be a seperate issue and the pedals seem to function fine regardless.

Zatoh